Podcast: From Italy to the US, Small Town Communities Unite Against Data Centers

Benedetta Argentieri: Hi to everyone, this is Turning Point. Today we’re very happy because we are going to talk about artificial intelligence and everything that is connected to it. And with us is Simone. Thank you very much for being here. Do you want to introduce yourself?

Simone Renza: Hi to everyone, I’m Simone, I’m part of N.I.N.A. Collective. It’s a group of people who are studying AI or superintelligence, as it is known nowadays. And also, I’m an entertainment lawyer. So for me, artificial intelligence is a matter of politics, but also it’s a matter of work.

BA: Can you tell us a little bit more about NINA, and why did you feel at the time—because NINA has several years now—the need to bring together people that analyze and look into artificial intelligence?

SR: Yes, four years. This collective was born to analyze and study what is in artificial intelligence. And four years in the AI era is like 20 years for a human being. So we have seen, we have studied the fast development of artificial intelligence, and we have noticed that people are not aware of what artificial intelligence is. Most of them think that artificial intelligence was something to do videos, like the first videos from artificial intelligence with the famous actor—I don’t remember the name, the Fresh Prince, I don’t know—but it was a very, very slopped video.

BA: I guess that the video person was Will Smith, no?

SR: Will Smith, yeah, yeah, sorry, I don’t remember the name. And it was one of the first videos that showed how artificial intelligence has grown in four years.

BA: I want to ask you two things. First of all, you know that NINA is actually a very kind of catchy name for a collective that is based in Italy, and it’s like “neither intelligence nor artificial.” You know, you said that a lot of people are not aware about what artificial intelligence is, and maybe we can start from there.

SR: Yeah, since the beginning we have taken this name from the book of [Kate] Crawford. And as I said before, we studied it. Well, since I was part of the collective, I didn’t know much about artificial intelligence. I thought it was something in outer space that could never impact us. It was a big surprise because it’s not something just for technicians, or people from NASA, or people who work with computers and IT. It’s something strictly connected with our everyday life. Because, as you know, the first thing that I noticed and that shocked me was that for one prompt in Claude, in ChatGPT, and many others, a liter of water was used to respond to my prompt.

So I think that now this is a data point which is completely absorbed by everyone, but in the beginning, I found it very strange. So I take care when I ask something to the various artificial intelligences. And when we present this data to the people, most of them, a lot of them, were shocked like me and said, “Okay, so I will not use Meta AI or WhatsApp for something like needing to do pasta with pesto. So what can I do?” A liter of water that could be used to do pasta!

BA: Can you specify how much water? In the sense that it’s not like—we call it a liter of water, but how many liters of water can prompts such as this one consume?

SR: Yeah, this is a big question because water, as we know well, and we’ve noticed this summer, water is now a field of battle. And now the main campaign was against data centers, and water is the main point. Because data centers are—as shown to us by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez when she brought the “dark water” to Congress—water is something that we are running low on because there’s no rain, there’s no snow, and it could be very difficult in the next years to have water to drink, or even to take a shower or anything else.

So when politicians are telling us, especially in Italy—where we are building mini data centers, especially in Milan, and also in Piedmont, which are the regions with the most water reserves in Italy because of the Alps—and telling us, “Okay, we need data centers, we need data centers, and we need to build them because if not, everything that we are doing now will be stopped.”

So I talked with a teacher from Bocconi, which is a private university in Milan, who told me, “We need data centers because artificial intelligence is something that is extremely useful.” And I think so too. I think that artificial intelligence is something that could bring human beings to another era, but not as designed nowadays. Because the artificial intelligence models as designed now are especially done for surveillance, war, and control, and especially for political use, not for bringing the human being into another era where finally we don’t have to work, and we’ll be paid, and we can live our lives as we want. And this is a fundamental reason because the models of artificial intelligence, as we know, every model is the same and every model is built…

BA: By every model, you mean every different kind of AI that…

SR: Yeah, yeah, every, as I know, Gemini, Claude, Anthropic, OpenAI, Grok, Meta AI… And it’s a problem, it’s a big problem, I think. And we are not against artificial intelligence. Because 25 years ago, I was part of the movement called No Global, and people told us, “You are against globalization, you want the world to go to a medieval era.” No, no, no. We are not against technology, we are against this kind of model controlled by human beings—or rather, where humans are becoming obsolete and controlled. It is a big problem.

And the Chinese philosophy regarding artificial intelligence—or as I just name it, human-made intelligence—is something that we need to watch, need to see, and need to study. Because we are involved in the Western-centric way of thinking and way of life, but the world is global, as I said before, and we need to look at it in a global way.

And also I want to add that the European Union must have a point of view, must have its own model of artificial intelligence. But we as Europeans, we are in the medieval era in this way. So we are producing many laws about data, about privacy, about everything, but we are not currently elaborating and producing an AI model. And I think that we need to, because I think that the European Union, with all the things that we bring as history, philosophy, and ways of thinking, could be something useful in research and in bringing a new era—a third way, I think we need a third way.

BA: I mean, this is like AI, artificial intelligence, and everything that is happening is a vast theme in general, because there are so many different repercussions that we can see on how AI is used. There are a lot of articles about how, you know, the way that we are using it in the Western world is really brainwashing the youthe—I mean, by brainwashing, they are not developing critical thinking, for instance. This is one part.

And, you know, in general, I think we can talk again in a little bit about data centers and this use of the environment, of domination of humans, because this is like pure domination. But we have one planet, we don’t have several planets. They could go to Mars. I mean, I would be very happy if Elon Musk would go to Mars. I would not have any problems.

SR: Me too. Yes, exactly.

BA: But, you know, like these big tech companies are having more and more, as you said, an influence on politics. And you talked before about legislation, but it seems that the Trump administration is very keen on imposing a certain view, not just of AI, but of the world. So one thing I wanted to ask you: we have seen in the past few months, or maybe the past two years, a constant alarm about what artificial intelligence could do. And there are speculations that these kinds of alarms actually benefit the tech companies. Can you actually clarify a little bit? Because on one hand, it seems to me that they are trying to terrify society and the population. But why? What is the endgame of this? Do you think that these Silicon Valley companies really have control over their models or not?

SR: It’s not a simple question, but it’s very interesting. I think that it is a commercial war, because the costs to maintain artificial intelligence models as designed now are very high, and not many people are paying to use artificial intelligence. So I think that, first of all, it was like the Cold War in the past: “We need to achieve the moon,” “Okay, we built the most refined bomb on the planet.” And I think the narrative, first of all, is like that. On the other hand, as I said before, it is a commercial war. And because of that, Sam Altman and others—OpenAI and Anthropic—have said, “We have some models, some agents that are not under our control, but we have stopped them.” And a researcher from Anthropic has left the company, telling everyone that most of the people who work there are scared about what they are building.

So I don’t know, there are many things. I don’t have a proper answer to this question. I hope that it is just like the Cold War and a commercial war, but it’s clear that an agent could destroy or could use weapons, because actually they are doing that. Machine decision is not final, and that’s the way. So we need to put the human being in the center, and we need to slow down the growth of artificial intelligence, sit down, and think about what could be useful and what not.

I know that this is very difficult because we are talking about big tech companies, enormous companies, and it’s something very difficult. But just to turn back to the Chinese way: when DeepSeek was released, in a few hours big tech lost an amount of money that I personally cannot write. So let’s see what the future—I mean, the end of this year and the early part of next year—what kind of future these companies are creating. And I don’t know, we can only do this: we can only sit down and let’s see.

And on the other hand, we can fight and try to push the discussion onto data centers, because data centers are the core, the heart of this new environmental war. So with the battle on data centers, I think that we can win. Because for many politicians in the United States, this is now an issue for the midterm elections. And now in Italy, this is an issue that many politicians are trying to understand first of all, and they are listening to the people because they are scared, and mayors of small towns are scared too. So let’s see what happens, but I think that this is a battle we can win.

BA: You know, on this—okay, now you opened the topic of data centers. Personally, when we started looking into data centers, I was a bit shocked by how many data centers we already have. And this is something that people are not aware of. I was looking at this map and I could see it’s like on the map, you see starting from the United States, you go through Britain, and then down to northern Italy, and there are many, many, many for sure. We will share this also with our readers, but it was a little bit overwhelming at the beginning.

And then you hear somebody like Jeff Bezos, who said, you know, it doesn’t matter if some millions of people will not have drinkable water, because developing this superintelligence is more important. And this is really, really kind of disgusting, first of all, because you cannot put humanity below whatever it is you’re building. And this is one part.

And the second part—to go back to what you were saying before—is that it’s really murky what it is they are actually building and for what. Because as you said, the military application of artificial intelligence is creating… like, not genocide, but it seems to me that these data centers are maybe developed way more for the military sphere than actually for social aspects. So why do we need more data centers?

SR: I think that we don’t need more data centers. But we are mapping here in Italy, as NINA, the number of data centers that could be built and that are actually under construction. And the same work has been done by Erin Brockovich in the United States. Erin Brockovich has done a big job; we are smaller, so we are trying to do our work.

And we’ve noticed that okay, the environmental problem is something that gets mainstream— the noise, pollution, etc… But we don’t know what data are stored in these data centers. We don’t know who controls these data. I think that these are the questions.

BA: Maybe you can explain what data is, you know, what is the data? What are they storing?

SR: This is the question. Because if public administrations build data centers in which there are my personal data—protected by Italian and European privacy laws—okay, we need data centers to store that, just like everyone uses a computer or a phone or else. So it’s important, it’s fundamental. But not every data center belongs to public administrations. Many of them are like buildings where every floor can be bought or rented by several companies. Amazon builds and owns many data centers on its own, and this is clear.

But many of them—we are not aware of who controls them. So let’s put this doubt out there, let’s think about that. A data center near Milan could store data for the IDF, or for the United States Armed Forces, or for NATO, or for… We need to have a clear view. We need to have access to these data centers. Public administrations, mayors, and also the government need to know who controls the data centers, who owns them, who rents a floor or an entire building, which kinds of data are stored in them, and what the use of these data is.

We can know, and the people and our representatives must stop or authorize construction based on this. If not, we have a problem—Houston, we have a big, very big problem. So let’s try to do this work. We are now trying to map all these kinds of things, and we will try to understand what the future of these data centers will be and who will own them. Let’s see, let’s try to understand. We hope that public administrations will release access and all the documentation that proves whether a data center is for public administrations, energetic companies, or Amazon—because everyone uses Amazon, so Amazon has a lot of data and they need to store them. But we need to know, we need to have a clear view of what the reality is. So this is the future, this is the battle that we are trying to fight.

BA: So, as we talk about data centers and, you know, as a magazine, we focus a lot on struggles. You know, we have seen how many people are protesting about data centers. And maybe this is actually a struggle that can embrace somehow the globe, because from the United States to Italy to a lot of other places, people don’t want these data centers. Can you give us a little bit of an idea of what is happening in Italy? You said that as NINA you are mapping the data centers. But how many more data centers do they want to build, first of all? And how do you see, you know, the struggle going?

SR: Yeah, in Italy, the struggle is something very recent, because the issue was born a few months ago. So, as before the summer—I think that in April, March, April—many people from various cities near Milan became aware of the construction of data centers. And they organized. And a few days ago, on Saturday, there was the first big rally against data centers here in Rho, which is a little town near Milan. And there were a lot of people—hundreds and hundreds—because, as you know, during this kind of demonstration, we don’t know the exact count, but for a first check, it was the first great happening against data centers, and there were many people.

So, the movement is growing fast especially—and at the moment also only—in the north of Italy, because these are the places where the data centers will be constructed. The number of data centers at the moment—we are at fewer than two hundred, but we are mapping them constantly. So, at the moment, there are less than two hundred. I don’t remember the exact number of data centers under construction, but even one is a problem. So, we think less than two hundred is a big problem. It is a big problem for the environment. It is a big problem for the local population.

BA: You earlier mentioned Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, you know, going to Congress with this jar that had very kind of brown water that is not drinkable water anymore for anybody. You cannot use that water in any way, form, or shape. It shocks me that the government is giving this kind of permission to build and destroy, I would say, hundreds of towns. And we have to talk about also the climate impact that these servers have. Can we explore a little bit more the consequences, as you said, of just one data center?

SR: First of all, in the United States, the debate was mainstream. We have seen a lot of news in newspapers like the New York Times, the Washington Post, that are talking about that, thanks to the work of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and also Erin Brockovich. And so in Italy, the mainstream media like Corriere della Sera, like Repubblica—mostly Corriere della Sera—are presenting data centers and the problems and issues related to data centers as an opportunity. Because a company like the one that takes care of energy in Italy says that, okay, we can use the excess energy from data centers to provide people with the energy that they need. But it is also publicity, it is advertising. It’s not research, it’s not a way to do journalism, I think.

BA: Manipulation, we could call it.

SR: Yeah, yeah, manipulation. Yeah, manipulation is the, I think, the “Italian job,” as it’s called. But I think that people are aware of the problems related to a data center built in their neighborhood. Because they see what is on Instagram—they see the noise of a data center, they see what kind of water will be used. People are aware now of what the costs of data centers are, especially now that the cost of energy is very, very high. And they worry that with data centers, the cost of energy will be higher than now. And when you hit people in the wallet, people wake up: “Okay, no, no, no, it’s a problem. No, okay, we have to fix that.”

And so this is the question now. We are trying, as NINA, along with other collectives, other realities, and other people, to talk with local communities, explaining what the costs are in terms of nature, in terms of energy costs, in terms of noise, and everything else. And when people know about that, they say, “Okay, no, let’s not build the data center in our neighborhood.”

BA: You know, it seems like, as I said before, maybe this is a chance to build a global movement against data centers. I don’t know, this could be a possibility. In Italy, we have this habit of mimicking what happens in the United States—not just in Italy, but also in Europe. And we have seen already how different federal courts have blocked the construction of new data centers, which is quite interesting because it’s mainly in very Republican strongholds, whether it’s Texas or Tennessee or whatever. Do you think there is space—or as a lawyer, of course, this is not your exact field—to actually prevent construction and sue the companies that want to build them? Do you think this is a possible objective for people who are struggling against them?

SR: Yeah, I think that could be done. But I think that in Italy, justice is quite… I don’t know. If we sue the company building the data center now, justice might respond in five years. So I know that the center will already be there. I don’t think that is something that will solve the problem. I think we need to talk to politicians, because we are near to the general elections, and we have to wake them up by telling them, “Okay, so you are losing votes if you build data centers.”

I know this is lobbying work, but it’s the fastest way to block data centers. And as I said, in Italy we are near the general elections. So we can talk to the mayors, talk with other politicians at any level, telling them, “Okay, it’s a problem. The company will pay you, will reimburse you, will reimburse local communities by building such and such, but in the long term—in the mid-long term—it will be a problem. And if you want to be re-elected, you have to take a look at this.”

So I think that the lobbying way is the fastest way to block data centers. In the meantime, it could be possible to sue the companies, but we are in the legal system, and we would need a penal case because penal justice is faster than civil justice. I hope not, because if there is something penal, it means something like someone died during construction or else. I hope no, I hope no.

And also the lobbying way could be possible. I met some journalists who are doing research in this way, and I think that could be something to be explored to block these data centers.

BA: As far as you know, among the 200 data centers they want to build—did construction already start or not, or are they just waiting?

SR: Not at all, because we are not aware of how many construction projects are active right now, because we are seeing what kind of territories are given to the companies. I don’t think that today, out of 200—let’s see, out of 200, I think 50, 60, no more, less, I think less, but I need to double-check—I don’t think that a quarter of them are under construction right now. Because as you know, the administrative process is not so fast, and that could be something useful for us.

BA: Beyond the exact numbers, and this on top of other data centers—it was very interesting some time ago, I was speaking with a farmer who said, “Now they’re coming and offering a lot of money for the fields, and at the same time, it’s becoming harder and harder to be a farmer.” So a lot of farmers are thinking of selling, especially around Pavia, which is close to Milan.

But my question wanted to go in a completely different direction, which is that data centers have been included into sensitive infrastructure for the government. That means they are kind of—I don’t want to say military zones, but almost—very much protected. That also means that any protests are very, very hard, because the penalties are very high. So we have seen with the Meloni government that repression has increased a lot, and activists, the youth, especially climate movements, have faced really harsh penalties. And my fear is that by introducing this as sensitive infrastructure, it will be even harder for people to speak against it.

SR: Yeah, yeah, these are big issues. But I think that we can solve them because we are near to the general elections. And if I can talk to people who vote for Meloni, for Fratelli d’Italia, or for Forza Italia, or Lega—telling them that in these regions, which are very strong for them, if I can talk to these people, I can tell them, “Okay, so if we bring many data centers near Pavia, which is a territory known for rice…” Everyone here, especially in Milan, eats risotto in every way. It’s not a stupid thing, because if you touch the stomach of the people, they don’t want croissants, they want risotto. And if you touch their stomach, they can say, “Okay, so we can have less rice for buildings that consume power night and day?”

So if this one woman or man who votes for Meloni, Forza Italia, or Lega—which are the three parties currently in charge of the government—brings this issue to local politicians and tells them, “No, we don’t want a data center here,” the local politician says, “Okay, if I let the data center be constructed here, I lose my votes.” So I can bring this issue to higher levels in the region and also at the government level. I think that could be a problem for the three parties that are now in government.

But it’s not so easy. If it were so easy, we could solve every problem. But it’s not, because if we raise the issue, people say, “Are you a bloody communist?”

No, no, no, let’s talk about the data center, it’s not about communism.

I think if it were so easy, we could solve the problem, but I don’t know if it will be that easy. But let’s try. Let’s try in every way, in every legal way we can do that. In every way we can bring a victory, we have to try every route.

BA: I think you’re right in the sense that this is a time to struggle. We have seen the world changing in front of our eyes. We are seeing how technology also has become a main field of struggle for a lot of different reasons. One month and a half ago, an Italian collective that basically provided a network for communications with privacy was hit by a terrorist designation, which is something very, very disproportionate. It gives you an idea of what kind of line United States politics is taking. How did such an initiative get shut down after 25 years of operation? This is something very dangerous for so many different things, but the Italian government was completely silent, and this is also very scary. Is the internet… I think that the internet has transformed itself from that land of freedom that they were talking about into something that is becoming extremely repressed in so many different ways.

SR: Yeah, it was the ugliest news that I’ve heard in many years. Because Autistici/Inventati was a collective that provided us with a lot of privacy—just to do our blogs, our emails, just to… Autistici/Inventati brought us the most useful way to write on the internet, like in blogs or by email or else. And this is something that could affect anyone. We know these kinds of things happening to individuals like Francesco Albanese; now Autistici/Inventati is targeted as a collective because the Trump administration has launched this war against Antifa as if it were a terrorist organization. But we know that the word Antifa means anti-fascism, and I think that is something related to democracy, because anti-fascism—the people who fought fascism—built democracy. So I don’t think this is something that should be categorized as terrorism.

So hopefully in November the American people can bring us big news. I hope so, and I hope that Autistici/Inventati could be born again. But I also like the way they closed their open letter to the people, to everyone, which was: “Turn off your computer, let’s stay on the road, and the struggle will continue.” So I think this is the way: we have to shut down our computers, our social networks, because these are the new fields where they can control us. And if we come back into the streets, we can do something fantastic.

BA: Yes, I completely agree with you. This is a time of fighting, this is a time of resistance, but also a time to rebuild human connections. Because so much has been lost in the past few years, especially after COVID. We are hyper-connected, but at the same time so isolated. And to build new connections—like face-to-face, physical connections, going back to discussing with people, joining a reading circle—they don’t want us to think anymore, and this is the most important act of resistance that you can do: act the exact opposite of how they want you to act.

Of course, we will always have to use technology; technology is part of our daily life. But how we use it is up to us. And so I think I completely agree with you that that was very beautiful, because we need hope. We cannot continue with this disillusionment.

SR: Yeah, it’s something emotional that we need to bring emotion back. So, with this hope, I thank you very, very, very much for being with us for this podcast, and we will see each other on the street.

BA: Yeah, for sure. Thank you.